Curse

upier · May 22, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

For those that do not worship the French for their Freedom Fries (

) - "Mot du Jour" means word of the day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Net

We recognize the fact that farming with Shadow Form-based builds can be really fun, so we have not resorted to breaking the ability to keep Shadow Form up permanently. However, we continue to be uncomfortable with the speed in which players are able to complete various popular farming runs.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arena..._December_2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Net

While Strength of Honor was too good in competitive play, PvE builds that focus on buffing up a single character can be a lot of fun. To offset its removal from viable competitive builds, we wanted to try making this a PvE-oriented skill.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arena...dates/20090521

But, but, but ... the new PwK isn't FUN!

But on a serious note - do you actually approve of conscious decisions to introduce concepts that are completely out of touch with everything else in the PvE game? And if so, why the selective "fun"? I mean, everyone knows that ritualists and paragons need a bit of a tune-up - so why not send a bit of "fun" their way?

zwei2stein · May 22, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Loosing Is Fun!

(guess what game i play now)

EPO Bot · May 22, 2009, 03:15 PM // 15:15

I have no problems with S&H being boosted for pve because i was already using it for drunken mastering in pugs. Now it only got better.

Ariena Najea · May 22, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But on a serious note - do you actually approve of conscious decisions to introduce concepts that are completely out of touch with everything else in the PvE game? And if so, why the selective "fun"? I mean, everyone knows that ritualists and paragons need a bit of a tune-up - so why not send a bit of "fun" their way?

Now, I still say that Paragons are one of the most imbalanced classes for PvE. Their sheer ability to mitigate damage using an Imbagon build is unmatched, and they can pack some damage to boot. Ritualists continue to serve viable support rules, and are unique with their defensive Weapon Spells which are both powerful and non-removable by foes.

I was also rather caught off by the "fun" catch word in the Dev Update... it seems they've given up on "balancing" PvE, and are simply trying to provide more viable options for PvE players. While this is a positive thing for new PvE and veteran players alike, they are furthering the divide between PvE and PvP. They have said repeatedly there is no new content planned for Guild Wars, so aren't they crippling themselves by making a PvE to PvP change more difficult? PvP doesn't get old the same way PvE does. Sure, you get bored of it after a while, but the nice thing is that the meta changes, you can go into different formats, and that you never know exactly what you'll be playing against. I find it unlikely that players dissatisfied with Guild Wars will be interested in playing Guild Wars 2, and so I think something needs to be done about all of these PvE only changes. People will PvP for years, since Guild Wars has the best PvP of any MMO around, but the four year players won't be happy with PvE in a few years when GW2 is released, and they'll have moved on to other games.

EDIT: @Zwei - Dwarf Fortress is epic. I still can't seem to do anything right in it =P

pumpkin pie · May 22, 2009, 03:22 PM // 15:22

seriously, what is pve balancing?

BrettM · May 22, 2009, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Poor, conflicted ANet.

Solution to problem 1: Make SF slower! Add a 50% movement speed penalty, like Obsidian Flesh. Then sins can perma SF without being able to clear popular farms at great speed, relieving ANet's discomfort.

(Of course, this would also remove the "fun" as the players see it, which is clearing popular farms at great speed.)

I can't wait to see what comes out of the new fun philosophy. If you're going to buff SoH for this reason, why not throw in some buffs to Judge's Insight, Balthazar's Aura and Spirit, and other monk buffs? Then throw some love to the rits by buffing weapon spells, and maybe give eles the ability to cast armor enchantments on other players. Let ranger pet shouts affect the whole party, while you're at it.

Now THAT would be fun! A true god-mode that only works if you have a mess of supporting players with you casting and shouting buffs. PuG, anyone?

Johny bravo · May 22, 2009, 03:26 PM // 15:26

You know what was fun.... pre-nerf Spirit bond, or solo 55 UW or...Oh wait I could go on forever about "fun" builds they nerfed.

Personally I don't care what they do. I will have fun regardless

Tullzinski · May 22, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I love playing my paragon! I type /dancenew and she has that cool confetti shooting out that rocks!

MithranArkanere · May 22, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

There is no 'perma' for all professions.

They can't cut in half the Ursan Blessing while keeping Shadow Form whole.
At least Ursan Blessing worked better when in a team. Imbagons also work better the bigger the party is.
It's bad when kids lay alone. Change it so it requires full parties to work.

The more, the merrier. Playing alone is something for hermits and autistics with no Internet connection!

lilraceangel3 · May 22, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Umm..last time I checked "Fun" was relative. Epic HM failure =/= fun to me

Shayne Hawke · May 22, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

seriously, what is pve balancing?

I would say that PvE is balanced when each profession has a chance to play multiple builds to perform different roles that are on par with the abilities of other professions trying to play those same roles. Going hand-in-hand with that, each profession should have some build available to them that allows them to have fair consideration for inclusion into a group for anything they'd want to do in PvE.

Eragon Zarroc · May 22, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

are you a fun hater?! O_o

Ariena Najea · May 22, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I would say that PvE is balanced when each profession has a chance to play multiple builds to perform different roles that are on par with the abilities of other professions trying to play those same roles. Going hand-in-hand with that, each profession should have some build available to them that allows them to have fair consideration for inclusion into a group for anything they'd want to do in PvE.

I disagree with the bolded part, but agree with your last statement. Every class has its own unique niche, that gives it a unique advantage. Assassins' Shadow Step capabilities allow them to quickly spike targets and retreat to safety. Paragons have many useful Shouts and Chants that can empower a party differently than the other Professions, such as Defensive Anthem versus PvE Aegis. While each niche should have many viable options, each class deserves its own specialty. The PvE only skills help to balance this out, by providing similar skills to Profession skills but at different costs. Consider Snow Storm, which is similar to Breath of Fire, and Ebon Escape, which is similar to Death's Retreat. Although these PvE only skills have more potential than the "base" skills, the limit of three per bar keeps them in order.

With this in mind, PvE does not need to be balanced in terms of Professions or individual Skills. PvE must be friendly to new players in early areas to preserve the learning curve, must be challenging to veteran players in later areas (see HM), and lastly must be accessible to all Professions. For that last note, I do not mean that every Profession should be PUG friendly, but rather, that there are no areas that any one or more Professions are significantly countered. For example, having an entire zone with exclusively Warrior foes spamming Protector's Defense is poor from a "balanced" standpoint, since martial attack classes are at a severe disadvantage with no options unique to their class to counter with. Areas, particularly in Prophecies, that cater to one elemental type are not unbalanced, for example versus Ice Elementals a Fire Elementalist is no more relatively powerful than a Warrior with a Fiery weapon.

Farming has its own problems, and should be as removed from possible from "PvE balancing".

upier · May 22, 2009, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Now, I still say that Paragons are one of the most imbalanced classes for PvE. Their sheer ability to mitigate damage using an Imbagon build is unmatched, and they can pack some damage to boot. Ritualists continue to serve viable support rules, and are unique with their defensive Weapon Spells which are both powerful and non-removable by foes.

Ritus have Splinter, AR, and a few resto options to fill up the remaining skill-slots on that bar.
Paras have the Imba build.

Monks have a useful Healing LINE, Protection LINE and now the Smiting LINE is getting buffed. It's a bit different when the whole class offers just enough skills to make a bar - compared to being able to create a bar out of every line.
That's not fun.

Mordakai · May 22, 2009, 04:32 PM // 16:32

My warrior is still having "fun" with no perma builds. And I'm constantly trying new builds, always changing things around, because variety is fun.

If you can easily farm with no threat, no danger, no excitement, where is the "fun"?

Sure, you make money, but after you've bought all your nice toys, what do you do next?

Anet needs to plan for the long term: keeping people interested in Guild Wars for a few more years until GW2 comes out. How does keeping OP builds always viable accomplish that?

(This is not intended to be a flame / criticism of certain farm builds. I genuinely want to know).

Chicken Ftw · May 22, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

^While I agree that playing obviously broken shit isn't fun, we're probably in the minority. A lot of people like everything to be easy mode, and will hide their laziness/incompetence behind excuses like "it allows casuals to experience places they couldn't reach without it", etc. So what? Get better. If you suck too badly to reach something without X broken skillbar, you don't deserve it.

(In before "I paid for just as much as you did for this so I automatically deserve all the content in it" or the like bs.)

As far as what I believe is the intent of thread - introducing more viable builds for more professions so you're not shoe-horned into playing something predetermined to be the one role for your class... I agree. Every profession needs multiple viable builds. There's almost always guaranteed to be a build or two that are superior to the rest though, and thus the only accepted ones in groups. Again, back to the easy mode argument.

Ariena Najea · May 22, 2009, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upier

Ritus have Splinter, AR, and a few resto options to fill up the remaining skill-slots on that bar.
Paras have the Imba build.

Monks have a useful Healing LINE, Protection LINE and now the Smiting LINE is getting buffed. It's a bit different when the whole class offers just enough skills to make a bar - compared to being able to create a bar out of every line.
That's not fun.

I've always felt that there are a plethora of options that most people just don't explore, but that end up making powerful builds. For example, I ran a R/Mo build in Random Arenas about a month ago with the following setup:

Marks 11+1+1 | Exp 10+1 | Prot Prayers 10
Marksman's Wager
Sundering Attack
Penetrating Attack
Savage Shot
Lightning Reflexes
Spirit Bond
Life Bond
Res Siggy

Now, if I was another player looking at a Ranger casting Life Bond on the rest of the party, I'd probably be somewhat confused, and concerned about the team's potential. This build dominated most teams, and I easily had enough energy to keep Spirit Bond on priority targets, and function as a Turret. The point I'd like to make with this example, is that there are far more viable options than most people realize, and you need to experiment to find more.

As for Ritualist skills, I can name at least 20+ useful skills to have in PvE. Even without a secondary Profession, that is quite a few combinations. Paragons I will agree are more difficult, simple because they have fewer skills to play with. You'd be surprised though to see what they can do with their secondary, for example, we recently ran FoW where I was the only Monk, alongside 7 physicals with little preparation or synergy. Our Paragon player linebacked most of the time using a Sword, Coward, and Grapple. He used Command shouts such as Make Haste to allow me to escape melee attackers, Anthem of Envy to buff the other physicals, Hexbreaker Aria to help with Hex Removal, Go For The Eyes for energy management and buffing the other physicals, Anthem of Weariness to reduce damage taken from physical foes, and Signet of Return. Now, not one of those skills is on the typically Imbagon, and yet, he was far more useful in his role than if he had run an Imbagon. We have also had him run a similar build in Heroes' Ascent, and it worked beautifully.

As for Monk skill lines, I rarely run more than four skills of any line on my bar at once. Particularly in PvE, running hybrid builds is more effective than running a pure Healer or pure Protter. I also try and take advantage of my secondary for energy management, or sometimes to assist in a spike.

Bug John · May 22, 2009, 05:26 PM // 17:26

the only ones that should be allowed to complain about overpowered pve skills are the monsters that get slaughtered all the time in elite areas, I don't think it's fun for them

I think this game lost all its fun for the poor Thommis